Extras at campsites

[Flo]

It isn't easy to run a business! You need to cover costs as well as making a profit to make it worthwhile; dealing with public can be just as much hassle as pleasure.

We have camped on several small sites who have told us it is no longer viable, due to the costs incurred by rules of the two main clubs. Many only get business for a short time in summer and if a season is bad weather-wise no one books. Running costs are incurred even if no one arrives to pay.

Independent small sites, empty or not, still have lots of costs including insurance, maintenance, installation and maintenance of facilities. I expect they do a business plan and then charge and provide services in different ways but to suit their own site and circumstances. Some may charge a flat rate and include everything, others charge a basic and then add things on if people want them. They will never please all the people all the the time!:blank:

Larger sites have also to make a profit and they may have different ways of ensuring profit to cover all costs. Everything has to take into account the best way to provide the service. Too high a charge and loss of business, too little and it just won't be viable. Each business has to make judgements.

The business owner has to make decisions based on their own experience and how their business plan is calculated. I don't think a small Site makes a fortune. We used to run a food business and I have often heard people say they could buy the same thing from Lidl for half the price yet they do not have to provide, staff (even in days when there is hardly any business) electric, council tax, power, cleaning, loo rolls, hand wash, insurance, maintenance, gardening, food wastage etc and I could go on....... All these costs have to be factored in to plans.

At least with camping you have a choice of whether to use a site or not.

[CyberCynth]

Flo, What a good post! Very fair comments from the other side of the debate, I thought.

I have had conversations with lots of owners of small sites who say just the same. One chap told me he doesn't run his CS for profit as he never sees any! He likes people and loves caravanning and is able to enjoy helping folk at his own site, and when it's closed for the winter he heads off to warmer climes to enjoy using his own 'van. But he doesn't make any money from the CS.

Andrew posted elsewhere a few days ago that he'd seen a number of sites charging £30 pn for a pitch, which does seem a bit excessive to me, but as Flo says, you don't HAVE to stay on a site charging that much! Like the Southern Motorhome Show in Newbury recently, where on-site camping in a field adjacent to the showground was possible, the charge for that was astronomical! (Well, by my standards, anyway) which was why I pitched on a CL a couple of miles away. Very nice it was too, with a very friendly and chatty proprietor. You pays yer money and you takes yer choice. By choosing cheap an' cheerful sites I can get out a bit more often than if I was paying top rates. Even I can cope without 'leccy for a few days at this time of year!

Lots of folk complain about rules and regulations governing the two main Clubs, but personally that doesn't bother me. The rules are there for the comfort of all, as well as for reasons of H&S. Interestingly, having had comments on the site recently about the nuisance factor of dogs, the C&CC rules do actually say you may be asked to remove your dog from the site if it is causing a nuisance to other site users. So Brian, next time you're on a C&CC site and there are dogs yapping at all hours - report them to the site managers! Interestingly the CMC has similar wording in it's rules re: dog nuisance, but stops short of expelling the pests.
Cynthia.

[Twolitre]

Along with CyberCynth I too think Flo has raised a side of the discussion ignored (and/or unappreciated) by many motorhomers and caravanners).
I have run businesses on my way through life I KNOW there is much truth in Flo's post. Just imagine if all the sites closed because of financial in-balance. EVERYBODY would have to go wilding. Perhaps the hard shoulders on Motorways would to be available to wilders.
By the way - If I had laid out a significant five figure sum on a motorhome I would NEED to mortgage my house AND take up wilding. I have always paid my way in this World and continue to do so by limiting wilding to emergencies.
Jim.

[gasgas]

I think the skills required to run any business nowadays has changed during the last ten years. Now, you need to do this 'social' whateveritis stuff. I mean you have to have a Facebook page and a twitter thing, and the skills needed to run a successful business seem to be entirely dependent on how good you are at driving people to look at your page. This doesn't apply so much to us dinosaurs, but in theory if it is the young people you are after (anyone under 60) you need to be a twit and have a face. Apparently. On the other hand if you want dinosaurs you have to have advertisements in the right places, where we look, in magazines and so on.
Before I am 6ft under, I expect that 'drivers' will program into their hand held devices which camp site they want to go to, how many nights they will stay, program the car to drive itself there and program their pants to take themselves down when they enter their bathroom. On their electric Single Transportation Facility of course, they won't expect to have to put one foot in front of the other, that would be too much like hard work. When they get to the camp site the security gates will open, recognising the signals emanating from their transportation facility (what we used to call a car) and the car will be directed to the parking slot by the on site wifi. The doors will open and the seats will tip the occupants out. Shreiks of 'OOOH what's that?' as they find themselves standing or sitting on grass. That's green stuff, that grows when it rains, son.
I could go on, but you are already bored. Go and turn on another electronic entertainment device. Or better still, look inside your shoes and you will find instructions: Put shoe on foot. Put other shoe on other foot. Stand up. Put one foot in front of the other and repeat until you have got where you wanted to go. All by yourself without an i-thing.

[SandraM]

As for rules and regulations, the recent visit to the CS nr Hastings had a few and tersely given

One was that nobody should go faster than 5 mph and if you did you would (not might) be turfed off the site and no refund. I had no objection to the rule, just the manner presented was a bit firm.

She had lost her beloved cat to a camper going too fast so I think she nips it in the bud before it happens again and of course, peak times there will be children on site.

On the other hand, there are idiots about aren't there?

How many times do you see dogs off leads on sites when the rules clearly state they must be tethered.

So many times have John and I seen people at our local country parks walk ahead of their dogs so don't see it squat and therefore don't have to pick up after it. There are always a few who spoil it for the many. There will always be idiots or selfish people.

[Graham]

I think the skills required to run any business nowadays has changed during the last ten years. Now, you need to do this 'social' whateveritis stuff. I mean you have to have a Facebook page and a twitter thing, and the skills needed to run a successful business seem to be entirely dependent on how good you are at driving people to look at your page. This doesn't apply so much to us dinosaurs, but in theory if it is the young people you are after (anyone under 60) you need to be a twit and have a face. Apparently. On the other hand if you want dinosaurs you have to have advertisements in the right places, where we look, in magazines and so on.

Hi Andrew, Pauline and I are both over 60, I have two twitter accounts one for Small Motorhome and one for my football and a Facebook page for Small Motorhome, Pauline has a twitter account and Facebook page for her Pookie Doodle Crafts and a Facebook page for her Childminding websites business. We also run a Facebook page for our local SOBS group. Come on Andrew be a Twit and get a Face, get down with the kids.

P.S. I forgot we've also got 6 YouTube channels between us.

[CyberCynth]

Hi Andrew, Pauline and I are both over 60, I have two twitter accounts one for Small Motorhome and one for my football and a Facebook page for Small Motorhome, Pauline has a twitter account and Facebook page for her Pookie Doodle Crafts and a Facebook page for her Childminding websites business. We also run a Facebook page for our local SOBS group. Come on Andrew be a Twit and get a Face, get down with the kids.

P.S. I forgot we've also got 6 YouTube channels between us.

Yeugh, yeugh yeugh! No, don't do it Andrew!

I don't see anything attractive at all in being part of a media that bullies and vilifies anyone who happens to step outside societies norms. I certainly wouldn't touch FB with a very long barge pole after hearing on Radio 4 the other morning how FB is too slow to remove images depicting violence and sexual abuse, including images of children being raped and sexually abused.

Graham, you were warning forumites not very long ago about the dangers of Facebook, you seem to have changed your tune somewhat!

Anyway, that's a bit off-topic.

I really wanted to comment on SandraM's post about the 5mph limit on sites. Jolly good too. I don't think it matters if this site owner's a bit terse in her warnings. It's her site, she's put up signs warning of the impending removal of any offenders, if people still can't adhere to a safety ruling they have only themselves to blame if they get turfed off the site!

As for dog owners apparently not seeing their dogs pooing, all dog owners (and minders) are responsible for their dogs and should be prepared to keep an eye on them at all times. Having been a dog owner all my adult life I KNOW when my dog is about to poo! There is just something about their movements that tells me the dog is looking for somewhere to empty out. I have a very easy time with Echo. When she's carrying her ball she keeps hold of it when stopping to make a puddle, but a drops it for the purposes of a poo stop. (Evidently requires a bit more of a concentrated effort).

Are you all enjoying your lunch?!
Cynthia.

[karenw]

Flo is quite correct.

I was involved in setting up a camp site in 1993-5 (yes, it took 2 years due to Planning and Dwr Cymru concerns) and incurred a huge expense both for the initial building work, EHU to pitches, land drainage. Once up and running, then nearly all of the overheads are fixed so have to be paid at the same rate even if not a single pitch is occupied. Very few costs are variable, mostly just metered water and power, and if bad weather should write off a summer, which is can and has done, then the owners have next to no income. However, with the exception of 2 poor summers, the site has flourished with high occupancy (aka crowding) and very healthy profits from its rather high pitch fees starting at £30/night low season (incl 2 humans) with additional charges for anything and everything £5/extra car, £8.50/additional adult, £5.50/child... It would be a minimum of £41/night for a family of four tent-camping in low season - which sounds exorbitant to me, but the site has a monopoly so people pay.

The wildcampers mostly park a mile away yet still enjoy the benefit of free wifi, free loos with hot water along with a very much quieter and more relaxing location.

[Graham]

Yeugh, yeugh yeugh! No, don't do it Andrew!

I don't see anything attractive at all in being part of a media that bullies and vilifies anyone who happens to step outside societies norms. I certainly wouldn't touch FB with a very long barge pole after hearing on Radio 4 the other morning how FB is too slow to remove images depicting violence and sexual abuse, including images of children being raped and sexually abused.

Graham, you were warning forumites not very long ago about the dangers of Facebook, you seem to have changed your tune somewhat!

Haha, you've got me there Cynthia I do more U turns than Theresa May!

We use Facebook and Twitter to promote our various enterprises and to get people to the relative safety and friendly environment of this forum.

We have personal facebook accounts too but are very careful who we befriend, it is safe enough if you are careful about your privacy settings, my point to Andrew was to illustrate that because you reach a certain age doesn't mean you have to become a dinosaur.

[gasgas]

So long as I have Graham and Pauline to run this site, I have no need of a face or a twit. Thankfully you two have the brains of a teenager and can do this sort of stuff.
Actually the reason I now rebel is that I was in R&D of what is now called IT, and it got to the stage where I would spend 6 months learning some new protocol which would then be out of use two years later. I just got fed up with continually having to learn new stuff and now I can't be bothered any more. Also I won't go near faceache because my youngest daughter was attacked and left for dead by someone who used it to find her location. The trud got 6 months in jail for attempted murder. Why on earth would I want to use some software with that capability?
Sorry, Off Topic but my gruntle is dissed.

[Graham]

So long as I have Graham and Pauline to run this site, I have no need of a face or a twit. Thankfully you two have the brains of a teenager and can do this sort of stuff.
Actually the reason I now rebel is that I was in R&D of what is now called IT, and it got to the stage where I would spend 6 months learning some new protocol which would then be out of use two years later. I just got fed up with continually having to learn new stuff and now I can't be bothered any more. Also I won't go near faceache because my youngest daughter was attacked and left for dead by someone who used it to find her location. The trud got 6 months in jail for attempted murder. Why on earth would I want to use some software with that capability?
Sorry, Off Topic but my gruntle is dissed.

The brains of a teenager? If only we had the bodies to match.

I'm really sorry to hear about your daughter Andrew what an awful experience. That is a prime example of why we should be careful of our privacy settings, I see lots of people (particularly youngsters) who's account is open for the world to see and they put really personal information on there and they accept anyone as a friend even if they don't know and have never met them.

[NomadSue]

The brains of a teenager? If only we had the bodies to match.

I'm really sorry to hear about your daughter Andrew what an awful experience. That is a prime example of why we should be careful of our privacy settings, I see lots of people (particularly youngsters) who's account is open for the world to see and they put really personal information on there and they accept anyone as a friend even if they don't know and have never met them.

AND advertise they are going away for a holiday or are already away. Please come and rob my house...

Andrew, I am really sorry to hear about your daughter's dreadful experience.

I admit to being a regular FB user, primarily as a means of keeping in touch with my 3 children' two of whom live abroad. Also to keep in touch with my various friends who live in Bolton, Trafford and other relatively distant places. But we would NEVER post that we were going away prior to the event. The nearest I get to that is personal messages by email or FB messages to my family.

[Graham]

AND advertise they are going away for a holiday or are already away. Please come and rob my house...

Andrew, I am really sorry to hear about your daughter's dreadful experience.

I admit to being a regular FB user, primarily as a means of keeping in touch with my 3 children' two of whom live abroad. Also to keep in touch with my various friends who live in Bolton, Trafford and other relatively distant places. But we would NEVER post that we were going away prior to the event. The nearest I get to that is personal messages by email or FB messages to my family.

The thing is Sue that if you choose your friends carefully only they will see that you are away and as long as you haven't got friends who are burgalars you should be ok.

You and Ian are my friends on Facebook along with a few others I trust not to ransack my house if I say I am away. Choose your fiends carefully, make sure your posts are only reaching friends and you'll be ok.

[CyberCynth]

Haha, you've got me there Cynthia I do more U turns than Theresa May!

We use Facebook and Twitter to promote our various enterprises and to get people to the relative safety and friendly environment of this forum.

We have personal facebook accounts too but are very careful who we befriend, it is safe enough if you are careful about your privacy settings, my point to Andrew was to illustrate that because you reach a certain age doesn't mean you have to become a dinosaur.

Too late! she cried. Don't know about Andrew but I've already become a useful specimen for palaeontologists to study.
Cynthia.

[BrianTheSnail]

One of my heroes, a local friend has just died, a few weeks shy of his 90th birthday. Why was he a hero? He was a radio ham friend who still suffered from the child-like enjoyment of "finding out". He wanted to explore the latest technology, play with it, see what it did and if it was useful, embrace it.. He didn't have Twitter or Facebook accounts but he did have a den full of Arduino microcomputers - last year he persuaded me to teach an Arduino programming course to the club. He always had several unfinished projects on the workbench.

I have another friend who phones occasionally (usually when he has a problem) - in his late eighties he decided he would use Linux not Windows and also explore Raspberry Pi computers. What he does might seem trivial to the average 20 year old but for someone well into his eighties represents major achievements of which he is justifiably proud.

A third friend phones me almost daily with some trivial computer problem that is beyond his ken. Despite being a renowned professor he simply cannot cope with computers and the new world. Many of his amateur radios are still driven by valves and he is firmly mired in the past. Today's technology and the internet world merely exists just to frustrate him.

Moral - life is more enjoyable if you accept that the world, particularly the computer and internet world ,is changing daily and is much more fun if you change with it, explore its challenges, ask questions - particularly of Google, and embrace it. Don't get stuck in the past.